10 Comments »

1. Mark,

   I am definitely no a crunch apologist, and I also realize that it is nearly impossible to give a neat and tidy answer to such a broad topic, but I will ask anyway on the off chance you have a few quick thoughts to offer……………Clearly excessive use of flexion is going to present myriad problems, but are there instances where someone has lost the capacity for the natural flexion the spine is capable of and would actually need to work to restore it (as distinguished from just training flexion for no particular reason).

   I am guessing that even in such a case, crunches are n ot part of the answer, but I am just wondering about what might need to be done for those who are locked up almost stiff as a board.

   Charlie Weingroff likens the spine to a pendulum and say that while he wouldn’t actively train flexion, you still need to be able to achieve both ends of the swing, so to speak, in order for the pendulum to be able to properly find neutral……….I’ve probably mangled that a bit, as I am not eloquent like Charlie is, but hopefully I was able to convey his general sentiments.

   Comment by Jack — November 14, 2009 @ 9:35 PM

2. Hi, Mark.

   I have 2 questions for you.

   1) While I may have misinterpreted his comments (which were specifically dedicated to aesthetics as opposed to the impact on the spine), Christian Thibaudeau has said that some amount of dynamic flexion work is necessary to develop a “stage-ready” midsection (pertinent because I work with a bunch of competitive bodybuilders).

   Now obviously being ultra lean is priority number 1 for an eye-popping midsection, but he said that static movements alone will not allow for achieving the maximum amount of thickness possible in the segments of the rectus abdominis. Given this, do you think it is still possible to include a relatively small volume of dynamic flexion, on the order of something like 2-3 sets of 6-12 reps no more than 2x/week? Or would you still say that this is detrimental and should therefore be excluded? I recognize that not all spines are created equally and some can tolerate more than others (not to mention people have varying degrees of “injury history”), but I don’t want to keep it in strictly because of anecdotal evidence from a bodybuilding coach, nor do I want to scrap it 100-percent if 90 percent will still keep the spine healthy over the long haul.

   2) I notice that burpees are all over the place in programs, but typically people do these with quite a bit of lumbar flexion…….do you think this movement should also be scrapped or at least performed with as little lumbar rounding as possible when you “jump” the feet forward in the bottom position?

   Comment by Rob — November 14, 2009 @ 10:01 PM

3. Nice stuff Mark!

   Even an animal model is WAY cooler than the standard pics in text books. For those that have not done any type of dissection work, I highly recommend it (and I am sure Mark would agree, yes?) I want to do more dissection work again.

   Thanks for sharing and I won’t ask how you got the spines. I did some work on swine lung blocks and hearts a few years ago–good times.

   I do think that mobility even in the lumbar area is good and needed based on the “use it or loose it” principle; but when you have EXCESSIVE movement, that is not good. Some athletes I see tend to be hypermobile in the lumbar, but only at one segment. Ideally you want OPTIMAL mobility at ALL segments. True, most tend to compensate for lack of mobility in other areas (hypomobility) with too much mobility (hypermobiity) in other areas. Optimal mobility in ALL joints is key.

   For training, if NEEDED, I see no problem training the lumbar area as long as you re-assess them to make sure they can handle it; but you would do this with ALL exercises. Without a re-assessment you have not idea if you are helping or harming.

   Further down the rabbit hole, depending on the exercise I wonder how much spinal load there actually is (perhaps you know this already as you are more up on McGill’s current work than I am). I am thinking about stone lifting in particular. I will have to look at McGill’s last study on strongman in the NSCA journal, but I don’t remember stone lifting being one of the exercises they tested.

   Rock on
   Mike T Nelson PhD(c)
   http://www.ExtremeHumanPerformance.com

   Comment by Mike T Nelson — November 16, 2009 @ 2:07 PM

4. Thanks for the comment Jack!

   I completely agree with Charlie that the spine itself should have a certain amount of both flexion and extension. In fact, the lumbar spine alone should have a total of close to 40 degrees of flexion. If someone could not flex their lumbar spine to this degree I might be concerned that they needed to increase flexibility in this region. More often than not though, I tend to see too much motion here rather than too little.

   However, if someone could not flex their lumbar spine I would probably focus on increasing tissue length of the extensors (via stretching, soft tissue work, etc) instead of strengthening the flexors with an exercise that exposes the spine to potentially harmful loads.

   Hope that made sense.

   Comment by markyoung — November 16, 2009 @ 3:10 PM

5. Hey Rob,

   Good Questions!

   1. First off I want to say that CT is wicked smart and has worked with far more bodybuilders that I probably ever will. Still, I have to respectfully disagree with the statement that dynamic flexion work is required to get a stage ready midsection. As you’ve mentioned, it is absolutely essential for the competitor to have ultra low body fat or all the training in the world can’t save them. Once that is accomplished, the following thoughts come to mind.

   - Everyone has a six pack (or even beneath the body fat. The rectus abdominus is divided in the middle by the linea alba and horizontally by two (sometimes 3) ligaments giving the characteristic appearance of the abdominals. Reduce fat enough and this will appear.

   - To what extent can the rectus abdominus really hypertrophy? And if it can, why can’t isometric exercises cause hypertrophy in the same way that flexion based exercises can? Muscle force is often greater with isometric contractions.

   - Many gymnasts have abs that bodybuilders would kill for and most of them probably don’t do a single crunch.

   And looking more carefully at what you’d like to keep in, how much benefit is 2-3 sets of 6-12 reps two times per week really going to give your client over the guy who doesn’t do crunches. Is this really going to be the make or break point between winning and losing on stage? I would suspect not. And if those are weighted exercises the risk on the spine is even greater.

   I don’t want to rule out the power of anecdotal evidence because practice almost always precedes science, but if you’re not sure then I’d suggest trying it out on one or two clients. Do no flexion based movements and see what happens. I’d be willing to bet you don’t see much of a difference at all. If you do this, please let me know how it turns out.

   If you can’t absolutely get rid of these movements look up Dr Stuart McGill’s curl up which is essentially a modified crunch with one leg straight out. That may be another option.

   2. The issue I have with flexion isn’t the flexion movement itself, but repeated flexion under load. In the case of crunches, the spine is flexed and the abdominals forcefully contract. In the case of exercises like inch worms the same thing is the case. I don’t have a major problem with burpees because you’re almost jumping to your feet and exploding into extension. I wouldn’t do them all of the time, but once in a while would be okay as part of an overall conditioning program.

   Comment by markyoung — November 17, 2009 @ 7:47 AM

6. Hey Mike,

   I totally agree that dissection is awesome! I hadn’t done anything in some time. I actually just called up a meat packaging plant and asked for some pig spines. They probably thought I was nuts, but I managed to get them both for about $30. They were even nice enough to cut one straight down the middle for me so I could show the inside of the spinal column. Great guys!

   Anyway, I might be generalizing a little too much here, but most women I see have too much movement into extension and most men have too much movement into flexion. Obviously I assess first to determine which (if either) is the case, but it almost always comes down to some type of restriction at the hips.

   I have also heard others talking about doing exercises and reassessing (which I generally agree with), but I think that with crunches that this isn’t necessarily possible if you’re trying to assess microtrauma to the spinal discs. This occurs over time and is rarely the result of a single load. In fact, it is less important how much compressive force is put on the spine once, but how much damage is induced by REPEATED lower forces. By the time any tests are powerful enough to detect a problem it probably already exists. Just my two cents.

   Comment by markyoung — November 17, 2009 @ 8:03 AM

7. Meanwhile one of your Kinesiologist colleagues is recommending a cruch variation on a ‘respected’ bodybuilding site. I’d like to ask you what you thought of the curl-up, as suggested by McGill. It seems to exert very few Newtons of compressive force on the lower spine, according to his analysis, however, Eric Cressey has suggested that that movement may compromise upper-spine and/or shoulders.
   $30 canadian is not much I guess, but they could have given them to you for free. It’s a seller’s market, this pig spine industry.

   Comment by olivier dacourt — November 21, 2009 @ 9:22 AM

8. I haven’t read Eric’s stuff on the curl up so I can’t comment as to his reasoning. If I were to guess, he was probably concerned about the implications of strengthening the rectus abdominis which could increase kyphosis and affect scapular positioning and result in shoulder pain. Again…just a guess.

   In any case, I personally like the curl up as a very low level progression for strengthening the rectus abdominis. I use it only until I believe a person is ready to perform a front plank variation. I rarely do this for very long because people can progress quickly past this point. Still, it is a tool I like to keep in my toolbox. I use them sparingly when needed.

   Comment by markyoung — November 21, 2009 @ 10:22 AM

9. Hey there Mark!

   I agree with what you are saying,and I agree that there is current zero hardcore evidence/literature to compare potential long term issues from short term assessments. So even if I assess every drill and every rep, there is no guarantee (based on current evidence) that I will never have a problem. I do think it is a great start though! Many ways to skin the cat (or pig).

   Rock on!
   Mike T Nelson

   Comment by Mike T Nelson — November 23, 2009 @ 12:56 PM

10. thanks Mark!

    Comment by olivier dacourt — November 23, 2009 @ 2:53 PM

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