13 Comments »

1. Hi, Mark. This comment is more in relation to part two. If working with people who are resistant to the idea of dropping all loaded spinal flexion movements completely and insist on keeping in either a dynamic flexion or reverse crunch type movement on the order of 2-3 sets of 6-12 reps no more than 1-2 times per week, what are your thoughts? Is this “conservative” enough where they wouldn’t be running into issues down the road unless they already had a major issue and persisted with this practice? Or should I find a way to somehow convince them to dump it entirely, especially given the comments about having a finite number of flexion and extension cycles.

   As it stands, I have a few folks who insist on keeping at least a low volume of dynamic flexion work in their programs on their own time. So I merely dictate that none of that will be performed during our time together. In clients who have no glaring issues upon assessment, do you think this is still headed for trouble if I don’t convince them to drop it? I know asymptomatic doesn’t mean there are no issues present, but it seems like this is a relatively low volume if the insist on keeping it in right now.

   With regards to squatting and compression, what implications does this have for deadlifting? It seems like people are repeatedly bashing the squat or urging people to find other options unless you’re a competitive lifter, but doesn’t deadlifting (or even rack pulls from varying heights if deadlifting from the floor is not part of a trainees equation) pose many of the same “threats”?

   Thank you for sharing this series of videos and for providing your well-informed perspective. It is greatly appreciated!

   Comment by Rob — November 21, 2009 @ 6:11 PM

2. Mark,

   At my gym, we have a super yoke, and I have always been a fan of doing a few sets of walks with this implement, as it forces you to work hard to maintain stability. But given that this piece of equipment allows for significant loads as you improve and in light of this post, do you feel that it is detrimental and that I’ve been misguided in including it in my program?

   Personally, I can see the wisdom in saying that unless my main goal is competing in Strongman, then it should go. But by the same token, I don’t think that is always a good reason for canning something outright necessarily…………..essentially it leaves me on the fence. I feel the same way about your comments regarding squatting. I can absolutely see the wisdom in what you said vis-a-vis someone whose goal is fat loss (and you seem to indicate that squats aren’t out, merely not placed on a pedestal where they will not take a backseat to things like single leg work).

   You clearly have science in your favor, but there’s still a shred of me that says squats bring so much to the table, that it would be heard to cut them out or relegate them to a minor role in programming, unless a person was severely jacked up already. This is somewhat odd for me to admit, since if a person’s goal was leg size, and he was going to drop squats for leg presses, a bodybuilder would potentially nod approvingly, and single leg work is essentially a “smarter” leg press in terms of the ability to work the legs with reduced spinal loads.

   Fat-loss clients aside, I am also reminded of a Christian Thibaudeau article on the bilateral deficit, where he said that bilateral exercises need to be performed in order to minimize this, and unilateral work alone will do nothing to diminish it over time. I suppose it still comes down to finding the happy balance between productivity and not going overboard with a movement just for the sake of doing it, as well as focusing on deloading from time to time as well as little interventions like hanging from a pull-up bar between sets of squatting (when performed) or after the session.

   Comment by Jack — November 21, 2009 @ 8:15 PM

3. Hi, Mark.

   Given your feelings on squatting, how do you feel about deadlifting (or trap bar deadlifts or even rack pulls from varying height for those who don’t, can’t, or shouldn’t deadlift from the floor? The squat routinely gets called out, but I don’t see the angry villagers with their torches coming for the deadlift………….although this could simply be a flip flop from all those years when people parroted that deadlifts were a spine wrecker in waiting.

   I also have a quick follow up about dynamic flexion. Some folks I work with have expressed an unwillingness to dump it completely, so I grudgingly made a deal where they could perform no more than 2-3 sets of 6-12 reps (with my preference being toward the 3-5 rep range, actually) of any dynamic flexion movement (reverse crunch type movements mostly) no more than 1-2 times per week when not with me. And during our time together, I don’t have them perform any flexion.

   While I recognize that asymptomatic does not necessarily equal problem free, do you think these “compromise” parameters are conservative enough to avoid any issues, or given the “finite number of flexion/extension cycles, do you think I need to find a way to finally convince them to dump it for good?

   I constantly feel torn between what research says and this feeling like sometimes people are playing chicken little and being “too conservative” (if such a thing exists with the spine)…..it seems like a smart policy to assume everyone already has some underlying issue you may not be aware of and/or is going to be prone to trouble down the line if engaging in behavior X, but by the same token, I don’t want any people working with me to become hyper-paranoid or start acting like a bunch of tin men or glass statues.

   Forgive me if I come across sounding like an uneducated chump who is stuck in the dark ages with the nature of my comments. I was raised in a gym where if it didn’t hurt and wasn’t inherently stupid, then you were going to do it and do it with gusto. So that upbringing is ingrained and often hard to shake even when I think I should know better.

   Comment by Jack — November 21, 2009 @ 8:31 PM

4. Mark,

   Sorry for the apparent double post.

   That second question actually comes from my cousin who is visiting with me for Thanksgiving week. I hope you don’t mind. We are both avid readers of your blog.

   He was on my computer and forgot to change the name and e-mail when asking his question. I do apologize for the mix-up!

   Comment by Jack — November 21, 2009 @ 8:34 PM

5. Greeting from Australia, Mark.

   I was recently reading over on the elitefts.com website, and I came across the following article

   http://www.elitefts.com/documents/1100lb_abs.htm

   It depicts many exercises that would be likely to make you cringe, and many are demonstrated by lifters known for big squat numbers.

   Now I get that

   (A) these are powerlifters

   and

   (B) their main goal is to put up big numbers

   but it would seem like they wouldn’t want to go out of their way to impart any extra stress on the spine beyond what competition already does to it.

   How then do you reconcile world-class squat numbers (major compression) and side-bending and spinal flexion work with a group who would be looking to limit injury potential and stay on the platform to put up big numbers, hopefully for many years to come?

   The common argument is that the sport is self-selecting in that the best lifters can often tolerate the greatest stresses and the secondary argument is that powerlifters are usually injured r limited in some way. While it is not scientific evidence, I find it hard to believe that Mr. Tate would promote body-wrecking information on his website, even if the main goal of many over there is big lifts. So I am just curious as to your take on this. I am not tryng to get you to bash anyone, merely wondering why the best routinely preach X, Y, or Z only to have science or experts in other fields tell them a good chunk of what they do or recommend is flat-out wrong. Just because a top-ranked athlete says X is a secret to success doesn’t make it so, but it is difficult to discard things out of potential risk that may never be close to a reality for someone when someone more accomplished than you is suggesting it.

   I don’t discount research on spines and realize every person has a unique situation with regards to injury potential and posture, but if powerlifters aren’t blowing out discs left and right or being prematurely retired with end-plate fractures, then it seems like the average Joe off the street would be able to handle a least some level of all these supposed bogeymen out to wreck their spines.

   Heck, Oldtime strongmen were sinewy and strong as can be and had a look and performance anyone with any goal could envy, but a big chunk of what they did would be frowned upon today by people doing research on the spine. I am trying to learn to be more open-minded to science, but sometimes I am still tempted to go with “If it doesn’t hurt, seems sound, and performance is increasing and/or whatever is the desired outcome is achieved, then what I am doing will remain in a program over the long run.”

   Comment by Jack — November 21, 2009 @ 9:21 PM

6. Hey Mark,

   Thank you for your educational information! I have just finished watching the Functional Strength Coach 3 DVD set and enjoyed it a great deal. Your comments as well as Boyle’s and McGill’s make a lot of sense. Everyone says well we have been squatting for x years and we have not been hurt, well the information is clear, end plate fractures occur under compressive loads, just because you didn’t get hurt yet doesn’t mean you wont. My personal analogy then is that If we operate under that immediate cause and effect line of thinking then we would also measure fat loss after every workout and muscle gain after every workout and conclude that because we did not gain or lose a significant amount that working out is pointless, however we view it as a cumulative effect, we need to take that mentality to the spine as well.
   Thank you for all the good info! All the best. Pete

   Comment by Pete — November 23, 2009 @ 11:58 AM

7. Thanks for the comment Pete!

   Comment by markyoung — November 23, 2009 @ 1:12 PM

8. Thanks for the long distance comment!

   I can’t speak for all powerlifters, but I know Dave himself has had a lot of injuries over his powerlifting career. Here is a list from “The Dave Tate Project – Part II” by John Berardi.

   • Calves: I’ve torn both of them, leaving a huge indentation in each.

   • Right Knee: Back in the late 80′s I strained my ACL and that left me on crutches for two weeks. I’ve had three other similar strains since that time.

   • Right Hamstring: I tore this hamstring so badly that I nearly needed surgery to fix it.

   • Left Knee: I’ve partially torn my patellar tendon. This wasn’t bad, pain-wise, but it did mess up my squatting for four months.

   • Quad: I pulled my right quad in the early 90′s. It was so bad that it turned my entire leg black.

   • Groin: I’ve injured my groin on both the right and left sides. This was a year of hell where there was nothing I could do to get it fixed. So I just wrapped it up and dealt with it. After a year it got better.

   • Lower Abdominal: I tore my lower abdominal muscles seven years ago. I did this while squatting and it was perhaps the most painful injury I’ve ever had.

   • Spine: The following discs are herniated: L4, L5, C4, C5. C4 and C5 left my hand numb for a few months. L4 and L5 occurred over 14 years ago and required me to take two months off training

   • Intercostals: I’ve strained two on each side over the past ten years.

   • Left pec: I tore this muscle at the tendon and needed surgery to repair it.

   • Right pec: I tore this muscle in half but decided to not have surgery since the tendon was still attached.

   • Both pecs: I’ve torn each at least 20 times and each time caused the entire pec to turn black and blue. All of these happened before the above pec injuries.

   • Right shoulder: I’ve had a torn supraspinatus, bone spurs, and now have arthritis. I had this shoulder cleaned up with the AC shaved down to allow more movement, but am now experiencing almost all the same ailments in the same shoulder. Doctors are talking replacement.

   • Left shoulder: This one also has arthritis, but isn’t as bad as the other.”

   “Outside of one injury, I never took time off for any of them. I’d take painkillers and wrap the injury tight and keep pounding away. Now, I don’t say this to brag. Instead, I’m pointing all this out because I feel most of my injuries could’ve been avoided if I would’ve taken some time off to rehab them. Wrapping them up and pounding away probably lead to what I’m facing today.

   So…I definitely wouldn’t say that Dave Tate is deliberately trying to promote exercises to destroy your body (because he would probably crush me), but the main focus of the exercises presented in the article certainly is not spinal health either. And I wouldn’t say that scientists are saying what powerlifters are doing to get strong is flat out wrong. For getting strong it might just be the best recipe you can create. If you want to be a powerlifter you HAVE to squat. But if we’re talking about spinal health, heavy squats and flexion based core training is not the best path (in my opinion).

   Note that I’m not totally against spinal compression or squats either. I just think that people who are seeking to improve sport performance or to look better need to evaluate potiental risks and rewards. Then, when adding squats in, programming intelligently.

   I hope that makes sense!

   Comment by markyoung — November 23, 2009 @ 1:38 PM

9. No worries Jack! I appreciate all those who read and comment.

   Comment by markyoung — November 23, 2009 @ 1:38 PM

10. If you’re training just to be stronger and look better than I’m not sure the super yoke offers many benefits. Granted, such things are fun and can be added on occaision to revive a stale routine, but the ongoing spinal compression week after week might not be doing you any favors. I might be inclined to do heavy single arm dumbbell or kettlebell carries for distance to engage the lateral musculature without putting as much total compressive load on the spine. In fact, I got this idea from Dr McGill in a recent interview. He believes that a “carry” like this should be a part of a good workout routine.

    As you noted, I’m not totally anti-squat so the bilateral deficit could possibly decrease with some bilateral training in your programming. However, I’m not sure why it is so important to eliminate this deficit anyway. Does this improve sport performance in some way? Or hypertrophy? I’m not sure I’ve seen evidence of either. Granted, if you are a powerlifter this might apply, but in most other cases I don’t see a reason why this would be a concern.

    Comment by markyoung — November 23, 2009 @ 1:50 PM

11. I personally start my clients deadlifting/hip dominant movments with single legged progressions also. Beyond that I like to teach the deadlift from the top down starting with rack pulls and progressing to a lower height (if mobility allows). Trap bar deadlifts are a good option as well because they allow the spine to maintain a more neutral posture. BUT, the same rules apply for me as with squats. I use them conservatively and don’t think they need to be done all the time. And if someone said that conventional deads were going to be wiped off the face of the earth I wouldn’t freak out about it. I like them, but I could get results without them as well.

    With regards to your clients, I believe that your job is to teach them what they should and should not be doing. After all, if they knew what was good for them, why would they be coming to you? Granted, you’ll always have those clients who are going to do what they’re going to do when they’re on their own, but if you believe in your philosophy you must stand behind it and make it clear that you don’t condone such exercises whether they are with you or not. Frankly, I don’t know what the benefit of doing 2-6 reps of flexion based exercises is going to do for them anyway. Tell them to spend the time on meal prep instead. I guarantee the results will come faster with that.

    As for your thoughts on being “too conservative”, I can totally relate. Ultimately it comes down to your ability to assess a client (or yourself) to determine what the goals are and the fastest route there with the least risk. If someone wants to be a powerlifter they have to squat and deadlift. If someone just wants to get shredded do they NEED to squat or deadlift? I’m not saying they shouldn’t, but you need to evaluate why you’re including each and every exercise. If there is a faster and/or safer way…why not take it?

    Comment by markyoung — November 23, 2009 @ 2:15 PM

12. Mark,

    What do you think about inversion therapy? Keeping the spine neutral and hanging upside down?

    Great videos. Thanks for sharing the knowledge.

    Omar

    Comment by Omar — February 28, 2010 @ 7:14 AM

13. Hey Omar,

    Thanks for the comment.

    I have to admit that I haven’t done a great deal of reading on inversion therapy. However, IF it were effective for reducing lower back pain I would speculate that this is due to an acute decompression of the disc. I would also suspect that this would likely return when the discs lost their height again due to standing or any kind of compressive exercise.

    If inversion therapy is of any use (and I can’t say at this point whether it is or isn’t), I would think that it should be used in conjunction with a reduction in compressive exercises and a comprehensive core strengthening program.

    Comment by markyoung — March 1, 2010 @ 4:03 PM

RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URL

Leave a comment