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Autor: markyoung
~ 02/03/10
Let’s face facts for a second here. The vast majority of people that lift weights do so for primarily aesthetic reasons. Sure, many of us want to be stronger, faster, and healthier. And there are certainly those who train exclusively to improve their sports performance, but in the end I’d be willing to bet that training to simply look better is the single biggest motivation for the average trainee.
So why do many strength coaches crap all over bodybuilding? I could speculate that it has something to do with the rampant steroid use among high level competitors or the fact that some of them have more oil in their muscles than I do in my car. Or it could be the mental image of a bunch of oiled up, tanned, men and women posing on a stage in their bathing suits. I can’t really say for sure.
But what about people who aren’t interested in competing? What about those who are purely interested in gaining the leanest, most muscular physique possible within their own biomechanical and physiologial framework while keeping an eye on structural balance and joint health? Is bodybuilding training really so bad for the body that we need to crap all over their methods?
I guess the question I’m really asking is whether it is possible to create a lean and exceptionally muscular physique without sacrificing structural balance and joint health.
And in line with that question, is there room for exercises that are deemed my many coaches as unfriendly for the joints (such as the guillotine bench press) or useless (direct arm training)?
As with everything, I think it comes down to assessment. If you’ve read my blog you’re probably aware that I am a big fan of movement based testing with such as Assess and Correct, but beyond that I feel that it is really important to use the appropriate assessments to inform your decisions for each individual goal.
For dealing with obesity I use the Edmonton Obesity Staging System, for performance I look at the demands of the sport, and when training for aesthetics I like to do a true visual assessment to direct training. I should note here that I don’t care much for body fat testing in leaner individuals as this is less important than the physical appearance changes. I could care less what the number says if a client’s appearance doesn’t reflect it.
Here is a sample of a simple client assessment I use for evaluating a physique in which I can comment on muscle size or relative proportion:
- Upper traps:
- Front delts:
- Lateral delts:
- Rear delts:
- Biceps:
- Tricep long head:
- Tricep lateral head:
- Forearms
- Lower chest:
- Upper chest
- Upper back width:
- Upper back thickness:
- Lower/Mid back erectors:
- Abdominals:
- Obliques:
- Quads:
- Glutes:
- Hamstrings:
- Calves:
Highlights:
Needs Work:
General Impression & Plan:
Combining this with the movement based screen I should now know what muscles need to be worked (yes, I sometimes work muscles not movements…I know…blasphemy) and which movements should be contraindicated for that person. If arm training is warranted, I’ll do arm training because I’m not in the business of sticking to a “training arms is for wussies” paradigm because it is popular. I’m in the business of getting results.
Would I use the guillotine bench press, sissy squats, or upright rows? Probably not. But this is primarily because these are not the most effective movements in the first place and I can find exercises to hit the same muscle groups with less risk.
Are joint health and building a muscular physique mutually exclusive? I would have to say no. Do you agree? Feel free to share your thoughts below!
And thanks to my blog reader Rob for putting the idea for this post in my head. I hope I answered your question.
Mark,
I don’t disagree with you that there are better exercises from a risk:reward standpoint, but Bret Contreras recently had an article in which he seemed to indicate that the guillotine press was (at least in terms) of chest stimulation) quite effective.
Would your decision to pass over it be strictly related to the aforementioned risk-reward assessment, namely that any actual “real-world” difference between results from using a guillotine bench press of other options wouldn’t be all that significant/visually noticeable?
As far as leaving out upright rows, would lateral raises also get the boot for the aesthetic-minded lifter, or would these possibly be used so long as there were no glaring issues in the C-Spine, Thoracic, and Shoulder areas that might warrant leaving them out for a while or even permanently?
As far as quads go, do you think options like walking lunges (some would advocate making these “Siff” lunges, but that still seems like a fair amount of added knee stress that may not be commensurate with any reward) and single leg squats using 1 and a 1/4 reps (with the quarter rep coming in the top half of the movement) would be good options for hitting the quads with some more focus without resorting to things like sissy squats or leg extensions?
I also know some bodybuilders who like to use heels-elevated “old school” barbell hack squats, but for me, I’d probably sub in snatch-grip dealifts off of a step (using straps for heavier sets) to give the quads some extra focus without having to elevate the heels.
Comment by Len Gilmore — March 2, 2010 @ 7:11 PM
Mark,
Thanks for covering my question. I appreciate you making the effort and the very thoughtful and educational response!
Comment by Rob Difilipo — March 2, 2010 @ 7:13 PM
Great Read Mark! Informative and entertaining lol.
I have come from a bbing background and seeing a crazy trend in strength trainers to crap on bbers is rather funny lol
to each their own! train for whatever makes you happy!
Rob
http://www.RobKingFitness.com
Comment by Rob — March 2, 2010 @ 9:17 PM
Thanks Rob!
I think it is important for people to train based on their goals. I like the whole “train the movement” idea, but sometimes the whole “train the muscle” idea gets thrown under the bus. I think the secret is knowing when to use which.
Comment by markyoung — March 5, 2010 @ 2:02 PM
No worries! I’m glad I could be of help. Was there anything I missed?
Comment by markyoung — March 5, 2010 @ 2:02 PM
Hey Len,
Thanks for the comment!
With regards to the guillotine press, I don’t think Bret made any assertions about the safety of any of the movements. I think his point was to let people know which were the best for muscle activation and to let us choose for ourselves whether the movements were suitable for us given our own analysis of risk and reward.
And your assessment is dead on. Despite the EMG results, I don’t think that there is any “real world” difference in appearance between those who guillotine press and those who don’t. Granted, I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who did exclusively guillotine pressing so it would be hard to say for sure. It’s possible that these people exist, but that I’ve never met them because they’re spending all thier time in the physical therapist’s office.
The big problem with upright rows is the internal rotation of the humerus combined with abduction. This closes the subarcromial space which is the exact opposite of what you want to do. I don’t have any problem with lateral raises provided that the movement is in the scapular plane (not straight out to the side) and that people aren’t doing them with the thumbs pointed downward (as in pouring water out of a can). They’re great for hitting the middle delt. Of course, I’m assuming healthy shoulders here and recommendations may change based on individual history.
I personally like walking lunges, but it all depends on the person. For those with knee issues I typically favor reverse lunges to take the shear stress off the knee a bit. I’ve never done 1 and 1/4 single leg squats with the emphasis at the top. If I wanted to emphasize the top of the movement I might use bands or chains. I rarely see this as being needed though.
And I don’t avoid leg extensions. They are a supplementary movement (and a damn good one for extra volume on the quads) in physique based trainees. I don’t use them for sport or strength based clients. Again, a history of knee pain will dictate that I probably wouldn’t use them.
I don’t use the old Hack Squat variation because I generally forget about it in light of less complicated movements that bring about similar results. I think people often suggest this exercise to try and be different and look like they know a lot of stuff. The more experience I get, the less movements I feel I need to use with my clients.
Comment by markyoung — March 5, 2010 @ 2:24 PM
Great dialogue peeps!
I have been benching with a wide grip, elbows flared, bar high up on the chest for many years (not quite guillotine press but somewhat close) and I rarly ever have any shoulder pain. I’ve also been doing behind the neck presses, fly’s, upright rows, lateral raises, pullovers, weighted dips, and wide grip pullups for around seventeen years….and my shoulders are much healthier than nearly any lifter I know. I rarely ever get any shoulder pain and I’ve never had any shoulder injuries.
That said, there are individuals who would injure their shoulders if they simply watched someone do a guillotine press or upright row. It all has to do with one’s anatomy, strength balances, mobility, and stability.
I believe that I dont’ get hurt because I have excellent strength balances, I know when to end the set, I don’t let my form break down much, and I rotate lifts and have a lot of variety.
My pecs have always been my best bodypart due to the way I bench. I have much bigger pecs than most folks who can bench 100 lbs more than me. I feel very little pec stimulation when I bench “powerlifting style” despite being able to handle heavier weights.
Basically, exercise safety is highly dependent on the individual. Not everyone hurts themselves with various lifts. It’s always best to play it safe, and if you’re training others you obviously want to err on the side of safety, but people have a right to train the way they want.
If I cut out all the “unsafe” lifts I wouldn’t have nearly as much fun going to the gym or working out in my garage. I also do good mornings, bent over rows, back squats, straight leg sit ups, hanging leg raises, and side bends, which have all been deemed dangerous by many gurus…yet I rarely hurt my low back and have never hurt my knees.
Now, one could say that down the road I’ll be a beat-up bodybuilder but I also do mobility drills, stretches, and foam rolling.
I feel that many of the “unsafe” exercises I do are beneficial to me since they give me strength in stretched-positions. I’d actually worry if I quit doing them.
I have no problem with those who play it safe and avoid certain exercises. I know that I could probably keep my same physique by switching to only variations of push ups, dips, chins, inverted rows, lunges, and single leg hip thrusts (all bodyweight exercises) but this wouldn’t be fun for me. I like lifting heavy weights!
Although I have no problem with the folks who err on the side of safety, they often have a problem with me. They think I’m an idiot for performing certain exercises. This close-mindedness pisses me off royally! The gym is my sports arena and I am willing to assume more risk…which is what all athletes, powerlifters, strongmen, weightlifters, mma fighters, sprinters, bodybuilders, etc. do every day.
So to those who judge others for performing certain exercises, screw off! They’re being just like overzealous religious or political fanatics yet they’ve sunken so far down the hole they don’t even know it.
We need more trainers like Mark Young who understand sport-specific training and corrective exercise yet also have an appreciation for bodybuilding.
Rant over!
Comment by Bret Contreras — March 10, 2010 @ 1:09 AM
Hey Bret!
Please tell us how you really feel.
I agree that it is up to each person to assess their own risk. Some people like to throw the dice a little and others, not so much. I guess some might call me overly conservative, but there really are only a few exercises that are totally contraindicated (to my clients at least). As you mentioned, it all comes down to the individual.
Comment by markyoung — March 10, 2010 @ 6:42 AM
Mark,
As a trainer being ultra-conservative is wise! I’d feel horrible if I injured a client prescribing unsafe movements when there are plenty of safer alternatives.
However, my EMG research has shown me that exercises hit the muscles differently. Plenty of bodybuilders have found that they can hone in on certain areas of muscles with certain exercises. Most people train for physique-related purposes. Some of the articles I write are geared toward these folks. I can’t stand when some jackass posts a comment on the article discussion page saying something like, “horrible advice, lateral raises are very dangerous! you’re a horrible trainer.”
I could one up those folks and pick apart any exercise they recommend as all exercises can be dangerous to various joints! People like to learn different movements and they like variety. It’s one of the reasons why the muscle mags have been popular for so long. Many people just don’t understand bodybuilding yet they profess to be fitness experts even though they’re missing the boat with the reason why most people work out in the first place!
I am a lifter first and foremost. I always try to remember the bodybuilders out there because we can get caught up in our sport-specific, corrective exercise, functional training, and joint-friendly training worlds to the point where we forget our roots! Bodybuilding!
Bret
Comment by Bret Contreras — March 10, 2010 @ 1:38 PM